引用:

原帖由 小乔初嫁了 于 2006-9-1 22:20 发表

看来pc上要玩1080p非要512M的显卡:D

显然在pc上玩任何超过1080p的游戏也不需要bd

引用:

原帖由 tdkgtm360 于 2006-9-2 09:00 发表

显然在pc上玩任何超过1080p的游戏也不需要bd

只能说哪个时候还没有BD。

这话题开发人员都在吵，各位非专业人士是不是歇歇？

说明一下， DeLoura就是从索尼跳槽到Ubisoft的那位。

September 1, 2006

Opinion: Microsoft's Vrignaud, UbiSoft's DeLoura on Blu-ray

Opinion: Microsoft's Vrignaud, UbiSoft's DeLoura on Blu-ray Xbox strategy group member and outspoken blogger Andre Vrignaud has responded to a recent open dialogue with former Sony Development head and current technical director for Ubisoft, Mark DeLoura, regarding Sony's Blu-ray support with PS3, concluding, to his surprise, that the two are in "violent agreement."

Vrignaud kicked off the debate with two earlier posts on his Ozymandias blog, citing Sony claims that the Blu-ray's increased storage capacity were essential for its inclusion in its next generation hardware. On the contrary, said Vrignaud, it was drive speed that should be the deciding factor, and there, he concluded, the Blu-ray might fall short:

"At GDC Europe last year Sony mentioned in their presentation that the PS3 Blu-ray drive would have sustained peak transfer rates of 36 MBit/s (4.5 MB/s) at 1x speed. Since then it appears that the drive has been upgraded to a 2x drive, which would enable transfer rates of 9 MB/s. Assuming a full 50 GB Blu-ray disc, at this speed you'd need just over 90 minutes to read the entire disc through memory. Of course, you can't fit all of that data into system memory at the same time, so you'll either be streaming a great deal (hard even with faster optical drives) and/or caching data to the hard drive. There's a reason the PS3 is so expensive - once Sony committed to Blu-ray as a corporate strategy, they were also forced to bundle the hard drive in every box to help mitigate slow disc data transfer rates. PS3 games need that hard drive to load in any reasonable time - just look at the PSP for an example of the effects of a slow optical drive on game loading times."

The post prompted a fast response from DeLoura, adding a litany of reasons why capacity was indeed a deciding factor:

"Audio on PS2 was mostly stereo, two channels. PS3 is 5.1. That's a 3x size increase without even considering fidelity.

Default video format has moved from 480i, or roughly 640x480 at 30 frames per second (9.2 million pixels per second), to 720p. 720p is 1280x720 at 60 frames per second (55.3 million pixels per second). That's about a 6x size increase. 6 x 2GB would again push us over the DVD-9 size."

In his most recent post, Vrignaud takes issue with those claims, mentioning the Xbox's already standing 5.1 audio and increased processing power offsetting the cost of video resolution with more powerful compression schemes.

But it's on the subject of format throughput and marketing demand that the two were able to find some common ground.

DeLoura does concede that the Xbox 360's 12x DVD, which reads at 16MB/second, gives it a clear speed advantage over the PS3's 2x BD drive at 9MB/second, making for significantly faster load times in games, as well as a much cheaper component price for Microsoft. But that point doesn't necessary dissuade him entirely from Sony's BD strategy.

Instead, he points out that high numbers of PS2 early adoption could be taken as a result of its double-duty as an inexpensive DVD player, which could also similarly drive early PS3 sales as an inexpensive BD player, despite its increased cost as a console:

"Blu-Ray drives and discs have been very sparse so marketplace awareness is slight - it is more accurate to compare against the BD launches of 2006, which would make Blu-Ray for PS3 significantly earlier in the marketplace than was DVD for PS2.

The result is that the Blu-Ray drives for PS3 are expensive, and the demand for Blu-Ray movies in the marketplace has not flowered open yet. PS3 could stoke that fire, but it doesn't seem likely that Blu-Ray will significantly drive sales of the PS3 beyond a small hardcore market, in the short term.

It seems the decision to include Blu-Ray on PS3 must have been a difficult one. Long term it seems like a smart move, at least from the perspective of capacity. But short term that decision has definitely had some striking ramifications for PS3."

In response, Vrignaud summarizes:

"We seem to generally agree from across the (former) divide. Blu-ray as a system driver would be a lot more effective if there wasn't this whole format war thing going on. Until that's satisfactorily resolved (or dual-format players come on the market), consumers are just going to hold off. From my perspective it doesn't really matter as I'll have both a PS3 and an Xbox 360 HD-DVD drive the day they come out. But people with families to support or less disposable income are going to be deciding their PS3 purchase decision based on the system's merits as a game player, not a movie player."

[ 本帖最后由 RestlessDream 于 2006-9-2 09:36 编辑 ]

引用:

原帖由 ffcactus 于 2006-9-2 09:08 发表


只能说哪个时候还没有BD。

未来5年

1x的bd竟然只比1x的dvd快2倍
omg原来ps3读取bd的速度等于一个6x的dvd

At GDC Europe last year Sony mentioned in their presentation that the PS3 Blu-ray drive would have sustained peak transfer rates of 36 MBit/s (4.5 MB/s) at 1x speed. Since then it appears that the drive has been upgraded to a 2x drive, which would enable transfer rates of 9 MB/s. Assuming a full 50 GB Blu-ray disc, at this speed you'd need just over 90 minutes to read the entire disc through memory. Of course, you can't fit all of that data into system memory at the same time, so you'll either be streaming a great deal (hard even with faster optical drives) and/or caching data to the hard drive. There's a reason the PS3 is so expensive - once Sony committed to Blu-ray as a corporate strategy, they were also forced to bundle the hard drive in every box to help mitigate slow disc data transfer rates. PS3 games need that hard drive to load in any reasonable time - just look at the PSP for an example of the effects of a slow optical drive on game loading times."

这和我说的有点类似

这段最关键了。刚跳槽到Ubisoft当技术总监的前索尼开发者关系经理承认360的12xDVD比PS3的BD更适合游戏应用：

DeLoura does concede that the Xbox 360's 12x DVD, which reads at 16MB/second, gives it a clear speed advantage over the PS3's 2x BD drive at 9MB/second, making for significantly faster load times in games, as well as a much cheaper component price for Microsoft.

引用:

原帖由 nana1394 于 2006-9-1 21:14 发表
开发人员算个P
软饭们说不需要就不需要

我觉得人都算个p
你说他们说了什么他们就说了什么,自娱自乐的达人啊

引用:

原帖由 RestlessDream 于 2006-9-2 09:38 发表
这段最关键了。刚跳槽到Ubisoft当技术总监的前索尼开发者关系经理承认360的12xDVD比PS3的BD更适合游戏应用：

DeLoura does concede that the Xbox 360's 12x DVD, which reads at 16MB/second, gives it a cle ...

22G / 7G = 3.14， 9MB / 16MB = 0.5625，    3.14 / 0.5625 = 5.58
估算下来，PS3游戏的加载时间将会是XO的5.58倍，PS3终于有一项指标将XO远远抛离在后面了。:fq10:

引用:

原帖由 MK2 于 2006-9-2 09:53 发表


22G / 7G = 3.14， 9MB / 16MB = 0.5625，    3.14 / 0.5625 = 5.58
估算下来，PS3游戏的加载时间将会是XO的5.58倍，PS3终于有一项指标将XO远远抛离在后面了。:fq10:

ps3是pc,可以完全免光盘安装的,当然只限60g版本

ps2早期还有cd游戏尼？还是不要太短视为好，几年以后的事，谁也不知道，容量大用不完没事，容量小不够用就不好了。

引用:

原帖由 sunykoss 于 2006-9-2 10:05 发表
ps2早期还有cd游戏尼？还是不要太短视为好，几年以后的事，谁也不知道，容量大用不完没事，容量小不够用就不好了。

sony官方说所有ps3游戏都为bd版,这是很远视的
容量不够就整个双碟版,反正用ps2 ps gc什么的习惯了,不过要是个个游戏都和天剑那样"至少为主内存(512MB)100倍"那么ps3确实淫了

Basically he explains why you need more than DVD9 to make real next-gen content.
Enjoy!


On PS3 and Blu-Ray

My good friend Ozymandias has been going off lately about the decision to put a Blu-Ray drive in the PlayStation3. Aside from the fact that he works for Microsoft, I really don't see how he could argue that the Blu-Ray drive is not exactly the right move for games on PS3, when it comes to capacity. Here are two reasons why.
The Historical Perspective
At the beginning of the lifecycle of PS2, most games shipped on CD-ROM. These discs fit up to about 700MB of data. At the current stage of PS2, there are a few games that have shipped on DVD-9 discs. These dual-layer DVDs can hold up to 8.5GB, but one can assume that they are holding at least 4.7GB of data (the size of a single-layer DVD), or the publisher would have chosen to ship them on DVD-5.
So across the lifespan of PS2 so far, games have spanned a range of nearly 700MB to just over 4.7GB, or somewhere around a 7x size increase.
For the sake of argument, let's say the *average* game lands around 2GB right now. This would seem to indicate that conservatively we'd want to use a media format for PS3 with a maximum capacity of at least 7 x 2GB, or 14GB. That won't fit on a dual layer DVD. The only logical choices are HD-DVD or Blu-Ray. A single layer Blu-Ray disc is 25GB. Seems like this a good choice from a historical standpoint.
The Content Perspective
Let's keep running with our 2GB average game size. Relatively little of that data is game code; most of it is vertex data, texture data, audio, and video.
The number of vertices that Xbox360 and PS3 can crunch compared to the previous generation is at least 4x. 4 x 2GB is 8GB, Which would put us at a DVD-9 size if all the data were vertices. (Of course, it isn't.)
The texture resolutions have increased closer to 16x, which would push us to 32GB if all that data was texture. Yikes!
Audio on PS2 was mostly stereo, two channels. PS3 is 5.1. That's a 3x size increase without even considering fidelity.
Default video format has moved from 480i, or roughly 640x480 at 30 frames per second (9.2 million pixels per second), to 720p. 720p is 1280x720 at 60 frames per second (55.3 million pixels per second). That's about a 6x size increase. 6 x 2GB would again push us over the DVD-9 size.
And remember we're just doing back-of-the-napkin calculations here of an average 2GB game. We have 4x, 16x, 3x, 6x multiplied by 2GB. Perhaps an average game could squeeze onto a DVD-9. But the fact that this is an average means that many games are much larger. How can they possibly fit onto the Xbox360's DVD-9 long-term?
Plus ideally, shouldn't game developers feel they have enough room on disc that it doesn't constrain them? We want them to create amazing experiences, not mediocre ones. Why wouldn't you go with a larger capacity format than DVD-9?
The Other Sides of the Coin: Throughput and Market Demand
Admittedly, Blu-Ray looks dicey from several non-capacity angles. Blu-Ray movies require a 1.5x Blu-Ray drive, or 54Mbits/second. Sony announced that PS3 uses a 2x BD drive, which is 72Mbits/second or 9MB/second. The Xbox360 uses a 12x DVD, which should give it about 16MB/second. That is significantly faster for games and will result in shorter load times. And that 12x DVD drive should be a whole lot cheaper. (Note that the PS3 drive will do 8x DVD, and even that is faster than 2x BD.)
Of course the big play from Sony is that Blu-Ray will not only be popular for games, it will also be popular for movies. One of the reasons the PS2 initially sold so well in Japan is that it was very inexpensive for a DVD player. But unfortunately we're just a bit early on Blu-Ray awareness at this point for something similar to likely happen with PS3.
According to Wikipedia, DVD players launched in Japan in 1996. They came to the US in 1997, and by the spring of 1999, DVD players had reached down to the $300 price point. PS2 launched in the US in 2000.
Contrasting that with Blu-Ray, BD players launched in Japan in 2003. They really didn't hit the US significantly until this year, 2006. BD players currently are around $1000 in the US. And the PS3 is launching this year, 2006. From one perspective PS3 is launching just one year earlier than the time from DVD launch to PS2 launch in Japan. But Blu-Ray drives and discs have been very sparse so marketplace awareness is slight - it is more accurate to compare against the BD launches of 2006, which would make Blu-Ray for PS3 significantly earlier in the marketplace than was DVD for PS2.
The result is that the Blu-Ray drives for PS3 are expensive, and the demand for Blu-Ray movies in the marketplace has not flowered open yet. PS3 could stoke that fire, but it doesn't seem likely that Blu-Ray will significantly drive sales of the PS3 beyond a small hardcore market, in the short term.
...
It seems the decision to include Blu-Ray on PS3 must have been a difficult one. Long term it seems like a smart move, at least from the perspective of capacity. But short term that decision has definitely had some striking ramifications for PS3.
It's an interesting play, and not one that can be quickly categorized as the "right" or "wrong" thing.
Now don't get me started about the idea of shipping an HD-DVD drive for Xbox360!
我也来点见红的。总结他的观点D9今后肯定不够用嘿嘿 BD的使用不是用短视的眼光来评断的

[ 本帖最后由 CENA 于 2006-9-2 10:16 编辑 ]

引用:

原帖由 tdkgtm360 于 2006-9-2 10:08 发表

sony官方说所有ps3游戏都为bd版,这是很远视的
容量不够就整个双碟版,反正用ps2 ps gc什么的习惯了,不过要是个个游戏都和天剑那样"至少为主内存(512MB)100倍"那么ps3确实淫了

除了gc（1.4g），ps2和xb就没有换过碟，您玩过多少ps2换碟的游戏？

bd是好东西,不过是等其降价并提速后,整个9m/s的高价bd驱动器出来明摆着就是要fans买单
至于d9容量到底够不够,不是嘴巴吹出来的,是游戏做出来的,至今所有类型的大小360的游戏已经证明对于360来说d9很合适,再多也是浪费了,浪费啊,何况读取速度还是ps3的近两倍