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标题: [老游杂谈] 妙用SSF模拟器——量化SS游戏挖掘CPU机能程度！ [打印本页]

作者: chenke 时间: 2013-12-28 01:38 标题: 妙用SSF模拟器——量化SS游戏挖掘CPU机能程度！

只需SSF模拟器即可

进入option --> program2 --> slave SH2 speed % 调整百分比值
重启SSF
运行SS游戏，看是否有拖慢、贴图丢失、死机...

对于SS游戏用足2个SH-2 CPU的难度，铃木裕老师曾这样说过：

引用:

"One very fast central processor would be preferable. I don't think all programmers have the ability to program two CPUs—most can only get about one-and-a-half times the speed you can get from one SH-2. I think that only 1 in 100 programmers are good enough to get this kind of speed [nearly double] out of the Saturn."

经部分SS游戏的测试，发现些有趣的事实：

1、关于FMV
大部分游戏只用了main SH-2 CPU来播放FMV，而少部分使用了main + slave SH-2 CPU，比如

Solar Eclipse
用了80%的slave SH2 CPU来播片，效果出众（无电影卡）

Grandia
用了60%的slave SH2 CPU来播片。同时启用了SCU DSP，来达到全屏播放FMV的效果

2、用足了100%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Daytona USA

Daytona USA CCE

Sonic R

Nights into Dreams

Grandia

3、用足了80%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Virtua Fighter 2

Virtua Fighter Kids

Fighters Megamix

Sonic Jam ( 同屏多边形多的时候）

Hexen

4、用足了60%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Burning Rangers

Radiant Silver Gun ( 遇到3d bosses场景）

Dead or Alive

Initial D

Zero Divide The Final Conflict

5、用足了20%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Tomb Raider

Panzer Dragoon

Nipen Manmaru （忍ペンまん丸）

Battle Arena Toshinden Remix （闘神伝 Remix）

6、使用0%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

所有SNK格斗游戏...

Power Slave （只用一颗CPU，技术的lobotomy 怎么做到光源效果的？）

Duke Nukem 3d （只用一颗CPU，技术的lobotomy 怎么做到光源效果的？）

Cyber Speedway
...

欢迎大家补充

另外还有个妙法检测SS游戏运行时到底用了SS的哪些CPU/DSP：
将ssf.ini里的showregister值改为1，即可一边运行游戏一边观察SS的每个CPU/DSP的运行情况

[attach]605268[/attach]

[ 本帖最后由 chenke 于 2013-12-28 01:41 编辑 ]

作者: KainX 时间: 2013-12-28 07:22

这个嘛，即使用到slave CPU也不能说明它就发挥出超越单CPU的机能，因为土星那两个CPU使用同一总线、不能同时在内存寻址，SH2的缓存又特别小（4K！），所以我觉得现实中1.5倍基本上不可能。

作者: md2 时间: 2014-2-26 19:41

用足了60%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Dead or Alive

那所谓的TECMO用了68000来帮助运算就纯粹是个笑话了
单纯就是执行效率高而已

作者: sonicteam 时间: 2014-2-27 09:41

posted by wap, platform: 小米 (MI 2)

是你自己记错了吧，doa 用了 DSP来加强

作者: qyqgpower 时间: 2014-2-28 00:54

posted by wap, platform: iPhone

Burning Rangers用ssf最高兼容性模式，开场动画和游戏里也会有黑杠杠，需要怎么设置？

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-8 13:43

引用:

原帖由 md2 于 2014-2-26 19:41 发表
用足了60%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

Dead or Alive

那所谓的TECMO用了68000来帮助运算就纯粹是个笑话了
单纯就是执行效率高而已

DOA不光是用到了slave SH2，而且还用到了SCU的DSP，是SS上少数几个既用到了slave SH2 又用到了SCU DSP的游戏之一。开发商还是很用心的

另外，到目前为止只发现了Sonic R是唯一一个既能用到100%的slave SH2 又使用了SCU DSP的游戏

[ 本帖最后由 lemonninja 于 2015-3-8 13:49 编辑 ]

作者: werety 时间: 2015-3-8 15:52

引用:

原帖由 lemonninja 于 2015-3-8 13:43 发表

DOA不光是用到了slave SH2，而且还用到了SCU的DSP，是SS上少数几个既用到了slave SH2 又用到了SCU DSP的游戏之一。开发商还是很用心的

另外，到目前为止只发现了Sonic R是唯一一个既能用到100%的slave SH2 ...

SCU DSP是负责什么的？
土星用了这么多芯片，结构太复杂了，成本也高，连音频也要用68000，完全可以用DSP来代替吧？难道是MD时代的68000库存太多？

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-8 21:28

引用:

原帖由 werety 于 2015-3-8 15:52 发表

SCU DSP是负责什么的？
土星用了这么多芯片，结构太复杂了，成本也高，连音频也要用68000，完全可以用DSP来代替吧？难道是MD时代的68000库存太多？

SCU DSP负责处理多边形，也可以用来处理多媒体，就相当于现在的GPU中的顶点单元，也相当于奔腾的MMX单元。

68000是负责控制的，处理还是由DSP来处理的

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-8 21:34

引用:

原帖由 chenke 于 2013-12-28 01:38 发表
只需SSF模拟器即可
...

6、使用0%的slave SH2 CPU的游戏：

所有SNK格斗游戏...

Power Slave （只用一颗CPU，技术的lobotomy 怎么做到光源效果的？）

Duke Nukem 3d （只用一颗CPU，技术的lobotomy 怎么做到光源效果的？）

Cyber Speedway
...

...

Duke Nukem 3d这种哪里来的光源效果，最多也就是把爆炸周围的颜色弄弄亮而已，又不涉及到光源计算。而且人物都是一个个的“卡片人”，这种画面别说SS了，就连3DO都毫无压力。其实当年这代主机用真正用到光源处理的并不多，大部分都是障眼法。

作者: werety 时间: 2015-3-9 00:34

引用:

原帖由 lemonninja 于 2015-3-8 21:34 发表

Duke Nukem 3d这种哪里来的光源效果，最多也就是把爆炸周围的颜色弄弄亮而已，又不涉及到光源计算。而且人物都是一个个的“卡片人”，这种画面别说SS了，就连3DO都毫无压力。其实当年这代主机用真正用到光源处理 ...

PS、土星、N64的“大可牛可”都玩过，在外国网站上查资料，貌似PS版的敌人使用到了多边形技术。另外PS和土星在使用火箭弹的时候，红色的亮光好像都不是光源，只是固定的给周围景物加了个颜色吧？好像DOS版的好像也没有用到光源技术。“DOOM启示录”一书中提到卡马克说大可牛可的build引擎是“用口香糖糊出来的。”
不过PC上“血祭”好像是用了build引擎的改进版，比如站在岸上能看到水里的景物，支持了一些简单的光源跟踪效果。
我开写轮眼也仔细扫描过土星版的“溃克1”，开枪时周围的景物会被照亮，不过怎么看都是假光源，好像就是把一定区域内的多边形贴图以高亮状态闪了下就算是光源了。

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-11 00:18

引用:

原帖由 werety 于 2015-3-9 00:34 发表

PS、土星、N64的“大可牛可”都玩过，在外国网站上查资料，貌似PS版的敌人使用到了多边形技术。另外PS和土星在使用火箭弹的时候，红色的亮光好像都不是光源，只是固定的给周围景物加了个颜色吧？好像DOS版的好像也 ...

要开枪时周围被照亮实现的方式太多了，当年PS就是用大量的半透明来欲盖弥彰的。但是如果采用光源处理，那么必定会涉及顶点和法线的计算，这对当时的硬件来说是不小的负担。在多边形数量不变的情况下，加上一路光源计算量要翻一倍都有可能。

作者: koferma 时间: 2015-3-11 11:08

引用:

原帖由 werety 于 2015-3-9 00:34 发表

PS、土星、N64的“大可牛可”都玩过，在外国网站上查资料，貌似PS版的敌人使用到了多边形技术。另外PS和土星在使用火箭弹的时候，红色的亮光好像都不是光源，只是固定的给周围景物加了个颜色吧？好像DOS版的好像也 ...

虽然很原始不过这些都可以算是光源效果所谓真正的光源效果其实就是动态的计算贴图的亮度值罢了不管多复杂的光源效果都是这个基本原理

作者: koferma 时间: 2015-3-11 11:15

引用:

原帖由 lemonninja 于 2015-3-8 13:43 发表

DOA不光是用到了slave SH2，而且还用到了SCU的DSP，是SS上少数几个既用到了slave SH2 又用到了SCU DSP的游戏之一。开发商还是很用心的

另外，到目前为止只发现了Sonic R是唯一一个既能用到100%的slave SH2 ...

这么说SONIC R是SS所能表现的3D效果极致了实际画面确实也不错尤其是读盘的时候那个金属SONIC头像还有标题画面那个R的标志的反射效果确实惊艳了一下如果SS所有3D游戏都能达到这种效果还能有点竞争力可惜SS的生命周期太短后期SS应该还有发挥余地的不过光源效果和透明这个SS的硬伤怎么也不行了

另外不知道SONIC TEAM后期那个号称实现SS光源效果的救火英雄用到了多少机能看来那时候世嘉的SONIC TEAM就像现在SONY的顽皮狗啊都是搞先进技术的

[ 本帖最后由 koferma 于 2015-3-11 11:19 编辑 ]

作者: chenke 时间: 2015-3-13 15:50

引用:

原帖由 koferma 于 2015-3-11 11:15 发表

另外不知道SONIC TEAM后期那个号称实现SS光源效果的救火英雄用到了多少机能看来那时候世嘉的SONIC TEAM就像现在SONY的顽皮狗啊都是搞先进技术的

顶楼我罗列了:
救火英雄 60% slave cpu

另外，SONIC TEAM和NAUGHTY DOG，都离不开一个神人的提携：Mark Cerny

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-13 20:23

引用:

原帖由 koferma 于 2015-3-11 11:08 发表

虽然很原始不过这些都可以算是光源效果所谓真正的光源效果其实就是动态的计算贴图的亮度值罢了不管多复杂的光源效果都是这个基本原理

这种“手动控制”的光源还是要和后来的点光源区分开来的。

作者: lemonninja 时间: 2015-3-13 20:54

引用:

原帖由 koferma 于 2015-3-11 11:15 发表

这么说SONIC R是SS所能表现的3D效果极致了实际画面确实也不错尤其是读盘的时候那个金属SONIC头像还有标题画面那个R的标志的反射效果确实惊艳了一下如果SS所有3D游戏都能达到这种效果还能有点竞争力可惜SS的生命 ...

确实，像sonic r这样的游戏连PS上都找不到几个能与之相比的，古惑狼虽然画面好，但场景没有自由的360°转换，这样大多数时候场景只需要做X Y轴或者Y Z轴的变化，计算量就要少很多。
不过，要同时调用2个CPU还要外加SCU的DPS来处理矩阵还要协调2个VDP，不是每个厂商都能做到的，也只有sonic r这么一款游戏能做到这样完善的发挥SS机能（传说中土星版的莎木没有见过，不好下定论），可见是一件多么不容易的事情。

作者: chenke 时间: 2015-3-13 22:10

引用:

原帖由 lemonninja 于 2015-3-13 20:54 发表

确实，像sonic r这样的游戏连PS上都找不到几个能与之相比的，古惑狼虽然画面好，但场景没有自由的360°转换，这样大多数时候场景只需要做X Y轴或者Y Z轴的变化，计算量就要少很多。
不过，要同时调用2个CPU还要 ...

Jon Burton interview by Sega Saturn Magazine (October, 1997)

This is an interview with Jon Burton, the programmer of Sonic R, in an issue of Sega Saturn Magazine.

The Interview

Sega Saturn Magazine: Firstly, can you tell us your position in relation to Sonic R?

Jon Burton: I designed and programmed the 3D engine, special effects and game logic.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Can you tell us a little of the history of Travellers Tales?

Jon Burton: Travellers Tales was set up about seven years ago and we have always tried to produce technically good games. Our first game, Leander, was published by Psygnosis on the Amiga.

Sega Saturn Magazine: More specifically, what projects have you been involved with?

Jon Burton: I designed and programmed Puggsy, Mickey Mania, Toy Story, and Sonic 3D, all on the Sega Mega Drive, as well as Leander on the Amiga.

Sega Saturn Magazine: How many people are currently working on Sonic R?

Jon Burton: There are three programmers and three artists working on Sonic R. (That's the Travellers Tales staff, there also Sega staff involved).

Sega Saturn Magazine: The version of the game shown at E3 was very early indeed. When did the team begin the project and what specifically was missing from the first track demo?

Jon Burton: We started in February '97. The first track demo had no AI for the opponents and limited animation and special effects.

Sega Saturn Magazine: How much input are Travellers Tales recieving from the Sonic Team?

Jon Burton: Sonic Team send us course layouts and game design/flow documents.

Sega Saturn Magazine: What is it like working with this legendary team?

Jon Burton: The game design documents are very good with some great design features. They know what makes a playable game, making out job very much easier.

Sega Saturn Magazine: At what stage was it decided that Sonic R would be a racing game?

Jon Burton: We had just started programming a racing engine on the Saturn at the time we were approached by Sega to produce the next Sonic game. It made sense to use the engine we were writing. (Coincidentally, Sonic Team did specifically ask for a racing game).

Sega Saturn Magazine: Were the team influenced at all by the success of Mario Kart 64?

Jon Burton: I was disappointed by Mario Kart

64. There are probably loads of hidden features and

tracks, but I couldn't find any. Considering the power of

the N64, I felt the game was graphically weak.

Sega Saturn Magazine: At what point was it decided to allow players more freedom than is offered by other racing games?

Jon Burton: The Sonic Team wanted to expand the race game into a cross between a race game and a platform adventure game. We developed the 3D engine to allow the players to roam freely and ended up with a engine that would happily support a platform game such as Mario 64, if needed.

Sega Saturn Magazine: There's a lot of freedom in the courses compared to other racing games - why is this important to Sonic R? Is there actually any chance of the player getting lost?

Jon Burton: Sonic is traditionally a platform adventure so we needed to include exploration and secret areas to keep the Sonic tradition, even though it's a racing game. There will be an onscreen map to help players find their way around.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Are the planned five circuits modelled on levels from previous Sonic games, or are the courses entirely original?

Jon Burton: The courses are entirely original, although the art direction is losely based on the Green Hill, Casino Night, Chemical Factory, etcetera zones.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Aside from Sonic himself, what other characters are slated to make an appearance in Sonic R? What are the differences between them aside from appearance?

Jon Burton: Tails, Knuckles, Amy and Robotnik appear as well as many hidden characters. Knuckles can glide, Tails can fly, Amy drives a car etcetera.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Secret routes and stages are a main feature of previous Sonic games. Are the team planning to incorporate such features into Sonic R?

Jon Burton: Yes. Each course has a large number of different ways to complete a lap. There are many short cuts, hidden routes and characters and, of course, chaos emeralds to find.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Are the team confident of being able to sustain the 30 frames per second frame rate?

Jon Burton: Yep.

Sega Saturn Magazine: What sort of gameplay variations are the team planning to incorporate into the finished Sonic R, specifically multi-player options?

Jon Burton: There will be a two-player mode (including Race and Battle modes hopefully) as well as Time Trial, Tag and possibly Relay modes.

Sega Saturn Magazine: What style of music are the team planning to add to the racing action?

Jon Burton: Sonic team want the usual Sonic style music and I think they also want singing on all the in-game music.

Sega Saturn Magazine: The character of Sonic the Hedgehog is a worldwide phenomenon. Does this put any undue pressure on the team?

Jon Burton: Not really. We've done a Sonic game before and Sega approaches us to do the Sonic projects so they must feel we can deliver the games.

Sega Saturn Magazine: The game engine is clearly excellent. Are the team planning to put this to any further use? Another Saturn game perhaps?

Jon Burton: We write each game from scratch and will usually only use the best ideas and techniques from our previous games rather than use the same code or engine.

Sega Saturn Magazine: What special effects and techniques are you most proud of in the Sonic R engine and why?

Jon Burton: The cross fading "misting" effect, the reflective water, and the compression technique used to calculate visible polygons.

Sega Saturn Magazine: You appear to have an almost Nintendo 64 style of "misting in" scenery as opposed to the usual popup. How was this achieved?

Jon Burton: Pixie Dust.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Okay... Is this engine 100% Travellers Tales' work or did you receive technical assistance from Sega or the Sonic Team?

Jon Burton: Everything we program is 100% original code. We are hopelessly arrogant and always think we can do it better than everyone else.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Travellers Tales are working on both Playstation and Saturn - what are the key advantages and disadvantages between the two systems?

Jon Burton: The Playstation is easy to get started on but you quickly reach the limits of the polygon performance and there are few tricks you can do to improve the graphical look of the game. The Saturn is more complicated to get to grips with but it has Playfield hardware, Slave and DSP processors and nice transparency effects which all improve the speed and look of a game when all used together correctly.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Could Sonic R be replicated perfectly on the Sony PlayStation?

Jon Burton: The "misting" technique would drop the frame rate to about 10 frames a second or less on the Playstation, the reflective water would be virtually impossible to achieve, and the Saturn has better gouraud shading giving much smoother lighting.

Sega Saturn Magazine: Do you think the Saturn has been pushed to its limits with Sonic R - after all, there's not really much in 3D that can touch Sonic R...

Jon Burton: We like to think so but it would be silly to claim that the limit has been reached already. Sega Rally pushed the Saturn on a level and we hope that Sonic R will do the same.

作者: werety 时间: 2015-3-27 13:42

最近玩土星版的毁灭公爵，顺便查了下资料，负责移植的lobotomy公司制作过PowerSlave，也是个FPS游戏，后来用这款游戏的SlaveDriver引擎移植了毁灭公爵和QUAKE，此后就没有什么大动作了，主要因为lobotomy把QUAKE移植到PS版上但却没有找到出版商，财务状况恶化，最后销声匿迹了。

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