TGFC Lifestyle - Powered by Discuz! Board

标题: [新闻] eurogamer与技术控地铁开发员谈次世代。。（至少相当于2倍的同等pc） [打印本页]

作者: 倍舒爽 时间: 2013-5-27 00:32 标题: eurogamer与技术控地铁开发员谈次世代。。（至少相当于2倍的同等pc）

http://www.eurogamer.net/article ... de-metro-last-light

Digital Foundry: Let's talk about next-gen console. What's your take on the general design in terms of CPU and graphics processing power?

Oles Shishkovstov: We are talking PS4, right? I am very excited about both CPU and GPU. Jaguar is a pretty well-balanced out-of-order core and there are eight of them inside. I always wanted a lot of relatively-low-power cores instead of single super-high-performance one, because it's easier to simply parallelise something instead of changing core-algorithms or chasing every cycle inside critical code segment (not that we don't do that, but very often we can avoid it).

Many beefier cores would be even better, but then we'll be left without a GPU! With regards the graphics core, it's great, simply great. It's a modern-age high-performance compute device with unified memory and multiple compute-contexts. The possibilities of CPU-GPU-CPU communication are endless, we can easily expect games doing, for example, AI pathfinding/route planning executing on GPU to become a common thing.

Digital Foundry: To what extent is the 8GB of GDDR5 in the PlayStation 4 a game-changer? What implications does that have for PC, where even the standard GTX 680 ships with just 2GB of GDDR5?

Oles Shishkovstov: RAM is really, really important for games, but all of it actually being useful depends on available CPU-side bandwidth and latency to the external storage device. I think that they put slightly more RAM than necessary for truly next-generation games this time, but considering the past history of Sony stealing significant percentage of RAM from developers for OS needs - that may be exactly the right amount!看到了吗？？？所以这8g内存。。嘿嘿。。

Digital Foundry: The last few years have seen a ton of poorly optimised PC ports of console games. Is the move to x86 architecture across all formats a good or bad thing for PC gaming?

Oles Shishkovstov: In general - yes, especially for indie developers. You have to understand that x86 is much more friendly for beginners at least because of its simplified memory model. Just try to describe to somebody what the memory barrier is and where and when to put it in - usually you'll be left with the guy getting stuck in an infinite loop! Joking aside - the less time we spend on platform-specific optimisations, the more is left to innovate.

Digital Foundry: Do you think that the relatively low-power CPUs in the next-gen consoles (compared to PC, at least) will see a more concerted push to getting more out of GPU Compute?

Oles Shishkovstov: No, you just cannot compare consoles to PC directly. Consoles could do at least 2x what a comparable PC can due to the fixed platform and low-level access to hardware.利好消息。。

Back to the question - yes, yes and yes. There are some things which are just more efficient to do on massively parallel machines like GPUs are. I think that at least initially, with launch titles, the GPU-Compute will be underutilised, but during console's lifetime we'll see more and more unbelievable and innovative things purely thanks to GPUs.
与达芬奇的意思一样，更多direct compute的应用需要时间。。

Digital Foundry: Early PS4 work we've seen appears to have utilised either 2x MSAA or post-process AA. Do you think your SSAA/AAA combo could be viable for next-gen console?

Oles Shishkovstov: SSAA is all about decoupling rendering resolution (and grid) from output resolution (and grid). So, yes, in some form or another it will be useful. As for any form of post-processing AA - definitely yes, it was used in the past and will be used in the future. As for MSAA - I'd rather like the GPU vendors to use that (rather significant) amount of transistors in other parts of GPUs. Anti-aliasing is the job of graphics programmers and not some magical hardware feature.

-------------------------

Digital Foundry: We've seen Unreal Engine 4 step back from true real-time global illumination. Is it simply too expensive, even for next-gen consoles? Can you talk us through 4A's GI solution?

Oles Shishkovstov: Actually that's not true global illumination, but more of a really advanced algorithm producing convincing results. Yes, all that voxelisation and cone tracing is very expensive, too expensive even for Titan-like hardware.悲剧，最大的悲剧！！次世代引擎最大的亮点在次世代主机上有心无力！！最没想到svogi连泰坦大叔也觉得会累。。

I did a lot of research on GI during our last project, but we did not ship with it. The fundamental problem is: when an artist tweaks lighting on PC (with GI) it usually looks like crap on current-gen consoles (without GI). Next-gen console will solve it, enabling us to use some kind of real-time GI, so both the PC and consoles will get it. Personally I still lean towards coarse scene voxelisation and tweaking from here, quite possibly live with some amount of light leakage.

Digital Foundry: Once it's financially viable to let go of Xbox 360 and PS3, what rendering advancements do you hope to see in next-gen gaming?

Oles Shishkovstov: It seems that personally we will jump to next-gen rather sooner than later. We are currently focused on another important aspect of our games - characters. I mean we are not only working on believable appearance/visualisation, but also are in deep research on believable motion and animation. In a nutshell that's full-time physical simulation of the entire body with generated animations based on a "style" model learned from motion capture. That's a really compute-intensive process, but the one greatly suited to a GPU Compute model.

That's just one example. The whole industry was held back with current-gen consoles, because they are a very important source of revenue. Now the lowest common denominator will be 10x higher, and that's incredible. We can expect some form of GI to become common, it will be rare stuff to see a shadow without umbra/penumbra, every model will be properly tessellated and displaced, the OIT will be commonplace (for games who needs it badly), we will forget forever about smoke not casting shadow onto itself, etc, etc - great times really.

I am not saying that we'll solve all the problems at once and the result will be available in every game onto every console, but a 10x more powerful baseline will spawn all types of research and resulting advancements will translate into many games, [and] not only console ones - the PC graphics will get a huge improvement as a result as well.

[ 本帖最后由倍舒爽于 2013-5-27 01:04 编辑 ]

作者: 拉迪克 时间: 2013-5-27 03:14

看看先

作者: 狂风007 时间: 2013-5-27 08:22

posted by wap, platform: Samsung (GALAXY S IV)

倍兄你翻的稍微详细点啊，大概说了些啥？
看了下，8g内存看来最大价值是为了os服务^_^

本帖最后由狂风007 于 2013-5-27 08:30 通过手机版编辑

作者: west2046 时间: 2013-5-27 08:50

It was already mentioned in another thread but it didn't get that much attention, although I find it pretty surprising: According to Kotaku, the Xbox One can only access 90% of the GPU ressources for games (1.107 TFLOPS).

So I think if the PS4 doesn't reserve a similar, noticable amount, which doesn't seem to be that far-fetched in my opinion, this would make the PS4 GPU not 50% but 66% more powerful (or the Xbox One GPU 40% less powerful, instead of 33%). Please lock if unnecessary.

作者: KoeiSangokushi 时间: 2013-5-27 09:02

引用:

原帖由 west2046 于 2013-5-27 08:50 发表
It was already mentioned in another thread but it didn't get that much attention, although I find it pretty surprising: According to Kotaku, the Xbox One can only access 90% of the GPU ressources for ...

最后一句的转折:D :D

作者: 1320581 时间: 2013-5-27 09:12

引用:

原帖由 KoeiSangokushi 于 2013-5-27 09:02 发表

最后一句的转折:D :D

什么意思？XBOX ONE的GPU只能使用90%?

作者: KoeiSangokushi 时间: 2013-5-27 09:13

引用:

原帖由 1320581 于 2013-5-27 09:12 发表

什么意思？XBOX ONE的GPU只能使用90%

前面说PS4的GPU实际性能比XBOX ONE强66%
最后一句Please lock if unnecessary.:D :D

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2013-5-27 09:15

posted by wap, platform: iPhone

引用:

原帖由 @1320581 于 2013-5-27 09:12 发表
什么意思？XBOX ONE的GPU只能使用90%?

剩下的要留给啃奶或者机顶盒什么的吧。

作者: polyhedron 时间: 2013-5-27 09:16

简单的说：
jaguar不错，很平衡，并行是很好的。
GPU很方便，统一内存带来超多新可能性。
内存非常重要，特别是带宽和延迟。不过好归好，sony的os用了太多……
对pc移植要好很多。内存模型简单了开发方便太多了。
因为可以底层控制，而且平台单一，虽然不太好直接比但游戏机大概比同等pc快至少2倍。
gpu通用计算将来会有很多。
更好的AA。
目前没有真的gi，但会有各种新技术达到很好的效果。svo cone tracing太费，连泰坦级别的硬件都觉得费。本时代游戏机的gi就算了，下时代会有很大提升，本人（指作者，本人更偏向连泰坦都觉得累的那种……）比较偏向粗略体素化的方法，不过可能会有不少光照泄露（gi里面常常有光木有影……特别是基于rsm的方法）。
下一代机器我们更注意角色的表现。
这一代机器是整个业界的瓶颈，下一代要好的多于是什么gi，半影，细分，oit（无序透明），可投影的烟等等等等都会变得普遍。很棒很棒。
我（作者）没说这些都立刻会出现，但现在的基础就强了十多倍，下面的东西不会差，不仅是游戏机，pc也一样。

[ 本帖最后由 polyhedron 于 2013-5-30 00:28 编辑 ]

作者: ffcactus 时间: 2013-5-27 09:19

posted by wap, platform: iPhone

引用:

原帖由 @KoeiSangokushi 于 2013-5-27 09:13 发表
前面说PS4的GPU实际性能比XBOX ONE强66%
最后一句Please lock if unnecessary.:D :D

四两君的阅读理解还需加强，这里unlock的对象是那保留的10%的GPU性能。其实已经保留了的话基本就不会再释放了。

作者: 变色龙 时间: 2013-5-27 10:03

but considering the past history of Sony stealing significant percentage of RAM from developers for OS needs - that may be exactly the right amount!
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
遮遮掩掩还是什么都没说，OS到底是占用1G还是3G？？

作者: 倍舒爽 时间: 2013-5-27 10:29

引用:

原帖由 polyhedron 于 2013-5-27 09:16 发表
简单的说：
jaguar不错，很平衡，并行是很好的。
GPU很方便，统一内存带来超多新可能性。
内存非常重要，特别是带宽和延迟。不过好归好，sony的os用了太多……
对pc移植要好很多。内存模型简单了开发方便太多了。 ...

哎，我是死脑子。。
像素级的和物理级的比。。。。
于效果来讲，十分悲观。。
ue4的光与暗过渡。。实在太细致太线性了，

不过丫说连泰坦都觉得贵我是不理解的，这莫非是pr话？？

作者: boboqpai 时间: 2013-5-27 11:21

参考PC GPU通用计算性能对比

作者: zhaodachen 时间: 2013-5-27 14:38

引用:

原帖由 west2046 于 2013-5-27 08:50 发表
It was already mentioned in another thread but it didn't get that much attention, although I find it pretty surprising: According to Kotaku, the Xbox One can only access 90% of the GPU ressources for ...

难道ps4使用的是上世纪80年代的命令行系统，不会占用gpu?连android，ios系统都得占用一部分gpu，系统特效越高gpu占用越大

作者: wk6833795 时间: 2013-5-28 07:53

引用:

原帖由 polyhedron 于 2013-5-27 09:16 发表
简单的说：
jaguar不错，很平衡，并行是很好的。
GPU很方便，统一内存带来超多新可能性。
内存非常重要，特别是带宽和延迟。不过好归好，sony的os用了太多……
对pc移植要好很多。内存模型简单了开发方便太多了。 ...

这里的下一代指ps4这一代还是ps5这一代？

作者: west2046 时间: 2013-5-28 07:58

引用:

原帖由 zhaodachen 于 2013-5-27 14:38 发表

难道ps4使用的是上世纪80年代的命令行系统，不会占用gpu?连android，ios系统都得占用一部分gpu，系统特效越高gpu占用越大

索尼有游戏界达芬奇

作者: wk6833795 时间: 2013-5-28 13:31

svo泰坦都费力的话那去年ue4第一个视频是用什么跑1080p30fps的?难道那个没开svo?今年ps4版的演示又缩的是什么?

[ 本帖最后由 wk6833795 于 2013-5-28 13:33 编辑 ]

作者: FoxLive2013 时间: 2013-5-28 13:33

废话，同等档次配置PC肯定比不过专用游戏机X1和PS4。。。。。。

作者: polyhedron 时间: 2013-5-28 13:37

引用:

原帖由 wk6833795 于 2013-5-28 07:53 发表

这里的下一代指ps4这一代还是ps5这一代？

指的ps4。

作者: polyhedron 时间: 2013-5-28 13:44

引用:

原帖由 倍舒爽 于 2013-5-27 10:29 发表

哎，我是死脑子。。
像素级的和物理级的比。。。。
于效果来讲，十分悲观。。
ue4的光与暗过渡。。实在太细致太线性了，

不过丫说连泰坦都觉得贵我是不理解的，这莫非是pr话？？

我也觉得有点……人家ue4的svo在680上直接跑实时所见即所得的开发都流畅的可以，到这家伙嘴里就变成泰坦都玩不起。不过看地铁那种资源消耗，他开发不出流畅svo程序的可能性还是很大的……
抄论文实现某个功能很简单，怎么实现的好就完全是另一回事了。地铁系列基本是浪费资源的典型。

作者: wk6833795 时间: 2013-5-28 13:52

引用:

原帖由 polyhedron 于 2013-5-28 13:44 发表

我也觉得有点……人家ue4的svo在680上直接跑实时所见即所得的开发都流畅的可以，到这家伙嘴里就变成泰坦都玩不起。不过看地铁那种资源消耗，他开发不出流畅svo程序的可能性还是很大的……
抄论文实现某个功能很简 ...

我17楼就是这个意思,680能跑泰坦不行,什么逻辑?

作者: wk6833795 时间: 2013-5-28 13:59

或许在三年后使用ue4.X版本的跨平台游戏pc版上能看到svo。

欢迎光临 TGFC Lifestyle (http://bbs.tgfcer.com/)